Okay, sorry. Okay. So several things. One is in terms of this potential confusion between the abstract idea and a concrete realization about Have you thought about giving them distinct names? Like possibly trace for three hours that they're actually close your eyes versus trace with just one country? Seems like a very reasonable suggestion. Yeah, I don't think we've done this yet. We haven't done it yet. Because we don't have a, like a tool that we're putting forward. At this point, if we have a tool eventually, or then I think we'll definitely rename it something else. Yeah. We have J's prototype implementation, right. But this was never designed to be used by somebody else. Okay. And so, yes, if we work on totally separate tooling, we'll get better explanation, design space. The cost of more effort? I'm not sure. Which is best. And I think I want to throw out two, I think that when it comes to the idea of thinking about like, tools, I struggled to even call them tools, because I think it's more than, you know, I think when we think of a tool, I think of like J's interface, and I think you have, like a desktop version of that, is that there's more, there's a lot, I think there's a lot more to tracing than just the final interface for showing things. You know, like Gen also, and we only sort of briefly touched on this in the paper, how to think about sort of how to organize these artifacts, even the process of like having everything be digital, for example, DA sort of has struggled with that, because she prefers like, you know, the affordances of pen and paper. And so so how do you even think about, you know, organizing artifacts in a way that they're digital, when you have a diverse set of artifacts? Like, what is that process? And what is the technology that supports that? How do you organize it in a way that you can then, you know, capture a trace on top of it. So J, and Daria been thinking about, you know, sort of smart spreadsheet templates? Like, what are the kinds of things that we want to capture? When we're logging, you know, a set of artifacts that are all digitized? I know, A, you've sort of had these ideas about like, you know, how do we sort of create a, a sort of frame, I don't even know what we call it like a framework or like a structure or a system for thinking that we can then sort of build a trace on top of, and then there is the idea of this sort of visual idea of how do we visually represent a trace, which again, I think J's instantiation, from her work was, you know, yeah, just first pass, we never went beyond that in our design process. So I think that there's like all these different aspects. If you know anything about trace as a concept, there's, there's sort of many different aspects to the technology piece that I think would be interesting. So for example, JSB, if you know, if you're working on, you know, curating your art, your artifacts, and how you're organizing them, those are even things we would be interested in talking with you about to understand sort of the mental model that makes sense for you, and how does that differ from J? And is that something that will work for DA? Or not? All the way through, then this idea of how do we visually represent traces and not saying that necessarily, we all have to work on all of them. But I think it's more than just like the one tool that we could work that well, that we will at least be working on on our end? And yeah, and this potential interest of brevity. So for example, if I do have a possible mental model of artifacts and metadata, so that artifacts, then the JD they get that have my tool for, lets you enter information about them. Good image, JD that can then be used by J's tool to visually display it. Yep, exactly. And we've talked briefly with JD dikes as well, I don't know if you've been interacted much with his group in London. But he's really interested, I think, from what I could tell, and the idea of nemaline, which I think is sort of J's language that she uses is around, how do we annotate these artifacts? What are useful ways for annotating them to sort of expose the knowledge that's embedded within any of these artifacts? How does How is that part of tracing or not and so You know, or do we just treat memo's as just another sort of class of artifacts? And that's another thing too. And yeah, exactly like you said, like, what I wouldn't be super interested in and I pitched this to the group is Yeah, in depth in developing a, I don't know what the right word would be a set of standards for how to, like store digital artifacts, and how to like organize them, whether it's some sort of simple spreadsheet or whatever that then if J build a tool, or JSB, you build a tool that you know, anyone can if they meet sort of an API, I guess, to your artifact collection, and anyone could try out these different versions of visualizing them. But But yeah, that's sort of, I guess, a set of standards for how we would suggest to do this, but standard sort of assume that you've done this multiple times, and have a sense about what are the pros and cons of different approaches. So I can stop talking, I feel like I'm talking a lot. I'm very excited about this idea. But I don't exactly know, the next step. So So J, could maybe you could briefly talk about what your hopes are for how you want to use trace what your plans are for the fall, like, you know, I think you said you're going to jump onto some new projects with Benjamin, like, is it that you're hoping to, you know, record a lot of your design artifacts as you go? Or like, what what do you think? What's the intersection of trace with the work you're going to do? Yeah, mostly recording or reflecting upon artifacts during smaller produce during smaller projects? And do you mind if I jump in really quick and ask a couple of questions, because I know A has to has to leave at 930. So I guess so you made this tool? And I haven't been able to look at it, but it was the main focus for you to record like to streamline the recording process. Yeah, the main focus was on streamlining the recording process. It has a kind of timeline view that's similar to what you have in the Tracy racy or biologic design study. I haven't really innovated on the visual representation of traces yet. Okay. And did you and you so, so you made the desktop version? What What were the, I guess, key things that motivated you to build this desktop version? Was it for streamlining? Was there other functionality that you added? That was basically just streamlining? Because, well, my feeling was that actually lots of stuff mailings or spreadsheets felt cumbersome with I could just drag and drop files somewhere and then fill in forms interface that seemed less friction. But if that was a web application, then either users would need to host a web server somewhere, or they will have to trust you or me or whoever's hosting service with their in progress. He says, work with the bakery license to do. Whereas if assess application, they can just run it locally. Having to actually like dragging and dropping, as well as potentially things like the abilities, the ability to directly take screenshots with the tool and save them directly. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And so when you can actually quit just a follow up question about that, just to clarify, so. So I didn't realize the tool you created was about recording. I think that's so cool. And so basically, you're creating a, like a local on your desktop. repository of your artifacts. Yes, which is somewhat your desk, which has a load of files as a JD method later. I see another timeline view within it. But you could also export to a static website. Yeah. I'm equally I get any validation that you make. I could embed within this. So you can feel application. Cool. And this isn't a web. It's a web application with electron. So anything HTML and JavaScript can be included into it. And what's the so for actually recording? Like, how do you I guess I'm like a high level you want to get too technical? Like how what's the process of like, you have like a memo or something? Like, what's the process of adding that to your tool? Yes, I can make a quick video to show you later, cuz I can't share my screen. Yeah, I suppose. But you can click a button, see what's new entry. And then you have a rich metadata entry field where you can type in actually, if you want, it's optional. You can drag and drop files to attach. And you can set. You can add tags, and you can set a date to the entry. That's really cool. And so when you you mentioned that it's recording and reflecting, or the main purposes that you're using it for, are you using the timeline visualization to reflect? Or are you doing using? Like, are you just looking through the artifacts? So finding the total overview, helpful for them doing kind of how the project progressed? What happens when, which, I guess, a fairly superficial kind of reflection? I think definitely so counts. Okay, yeah. And so you're not you're not using the timeline visualization? Like, like, at all, it's mainly like the recording and, and like curation of these artifacts? Yes, I'm mostly interested in the recording, but it's useful to see when things happened. In Are you are you planning Are you mentioned that you're tied to these artifacts, too. And that was one of the things in J's work we got really interested in is being able to trace in non temporal ways, like, you know, whatever, like, we had some questions about sketching that didn't make it into the paper, but she had, like, had tags on all the things that were sketches. And so we could, in some ways, sort of basically like, you know, filter those artifacts based upon these tags that she'd put on, is that also the kind of thing that you're hoping to do? Or I think, you know, ideally, yes. So you can attach tags, and then you can filter, so you show things that actually get a tag. I was also thinking that it might be useful for the tags from hierarchies. So you could have, like, one, tag, the fact you have a level that at the first level, you could have categories of tag, like artifact type, which can be like screenshots, or meeting minutes, or video recording. But you could also have categories like which design ideas are tied to each major design idea, and you can set it as a sort of hierarchical structure can be useful there. Why haven't currently implemented that? Yeah, that sounds like a really good idea. As far as like, like, I'm doing an internship right now. And I'm categorizing artifacts from an auto ml process. And I feel like hierarchy. Well, there's like a hierarchy for like the tagging. And so it's interesting. Let me just quickly jump in, because I have to get off the call. Again, but what I'll do is I'll just leave you on the call, you want to talk a little more. And I'll just ask here and just start to call. The one thing that I wanted to bring up is this idea that I, I am pretty excited about this, this whole like tracing ideas, how they as they evolve over time and how they end up in the paper, I think because in the in the current like version that we had was more or less one hop, right? It was like, here is like this tag, and this is the document when it first appeared, but it wasn't the network. It wasn't like a, an evolution. And it didn't end up directly linked to the sentence in the paper that makes a statement, right. And I would love to have like, here's a sentence of the paper. And here's how we came to that conclusion. Over time. Here are these different artifacts here, maybe some annotations about that, and so on. And so just to throw it out there for talking about like capabilities, and so on. And I'm so glad you said that, because I just went back and tried to do that for the this recent paper that actually got rejected from this. But I was looking through the ideas. And one it was so hard to find my artifacts because I started putting them in different folders as like the higher the hierarchy, my mental model changed, but also there was a lot of sort of influences and how we were interpreting the material. So being able was like doing this sort of genealogy of the idea and it was like oh, wouldn't trace would be great here. But something along the evolution of an idea that you can retro actively go in and look at as well. So there's like an interpretation of texts that I think is also important, and can be facilitated through and I don't know J, you've been transcribing all of your audio recordings, but Something to sort of bring that to the forefront of DTrace could be a really great, useful tool. Yeah. And one thing just to throw out, we've talked about it briefly as an internal group. But But JSB, I'd be super interested, if you come across this, you sort of touched on it area, which is I mean, essentially, by doing these tags, and I know you're leaving by A, good to see you. As you're building these tags, essentially, what you're doing is you're doing a form of coding, right? I mean, you could think about it in qualitative work, like, when you are analyzing a lot of qualitative data, you do these coding passes. Only, you know, one of the I don't know, if you've done much reading and grounded theory, but grounded theory as a sort of methodology. They talk about this a little bit, where you're basically the idea is that you're building up your theories as as you go as you progress through your study. But one of the challenges is that the codes that you've apply in the very beginning, are quite different than the codes you apply at the end, when, when you now have a much stronger mental model about what things are what's important, and you know, this kind of stuff is changing all the time. And so one of the things is that, like, in the early stages of a design project, you may put a bunch of codes in, but three months later, what you found to be interesting, looks quite different. What does that mean for a trace? Right? Like, what does it mean for the evolution of an idea? Is it that we're constantly going back and refining the codes? That's pretty labor intensive. But if you start to find yourself doing this, JSB would be really interested to have a conversation about, about that process. And what that looks like, since you are doing those codes from the beginning. And I mean, DA, you're gonna be in this exact same boat doing these codes in the beginning. But over time, those codes are going to start to look very different. Do you have to go J, is that but yeah, I'm sorry. I have like a mandatory intern workshop. First, like started like two minutes ago, but I want to say thank you so much, JSB, for meeting with us. Ma DA, the host if you guys wanted to keep talking, and like logging into the workshop, like right now my other laptop. Okay, but good to see you later. We'll catch up by J. JSB. Do you still have some more time or do you 

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